[Daveb]

ghost, on 21 October 2010 - 08:02 PM, said:

On most things , yes, if a person is capable of work it may benefit them to do so.

The point i categorically disagree with you on is that any one persons experience or capacity is a basis to come to any clear distinction regarding work. Experience is relative. When we start chucking in words like 'optimism' as a root or cause for a given situation we diminish severe mental health problems by showing a lack of understanding for what others may go through or experience. Maybe its me but to diminish a very real, often horrific disability by putting it down to someones attitude is to blame that person for a disability they have no control over. I may have an headache for one day whilst others may not know what its like not to have an headache. It would be wrong of me to make judgements upon those people in pain based upon my experiences alone.

Wasnt going to reply...but not sure I expressed myself clearly enough...hence I feel you are responding to something I dont feel I meant or said...

Firstly... I intentionally used the word 'occupation'... as opposed to what most people think of as work. Paid work, for those who can, want and are lucky enough to find it, and an employer enlightened enough to offer it... is a good form of occupation, least not, because we hope anyway..it can help financially. Voluntary work, occupational therapy..etc..are all valid activities that can aid recovery and develop a sense of wellbeing... and I dont think this is one persons experience etc... it is pretty much accepted by everyone, most mental health charities, doctors, and a a huge number of users of such services....whether it be joining a scheme to learn skills, art therapy projects, garening projects..etc..etc... anyway you get my gist.

I dont chuck words in very often either..lol... I don't.. as it happens.. feel that severe mental illness is something that down to someones attitude..that is clearly rubbish..however... I do believe that overcoming stigma, challenging yourself, pro active recovery oriented actions can radically improve the outcome for everyone with even severe mental health problems... not a cure..maybe not even a massive reduction in symptoms...but certainly an improvement in wellbeing and fulfilment, a sense that the self has been regained once more..albeit whilst ackowledging ones disability. I have tried to express myself as clearly as I can here... you may disagree..but.. I cannot think any differently...I see plenty of evidence to suggest this is a valid belief..and..more importantly... it gives me, and a lot of other people, hope.

What am I saying..hmmmm.... 'occupation' I believe IS good, and so do most people involved in the care of mental health and an awful lot of people who suffer. A logical extension is that 'work' is therefore beneficial..assuming all things are managed/equal etc (which I have to say currently they aint in the UK).... but... each to his/her own and current place in their recovery...

What else am i saying..hmmmm again... working pro actively on a recovery, which I guess IS an attitude or belief as such, is also beneficial... surely the alternative is to give up and settle into victimhood, dependence and misery... anyway.. I DO believe that this works to improve things...each person has their own 'version' of recovery.. the main point is... they see it as a vision, strive for it and seek out the wellbeing tools to help them achieve it.

Anyway... comments welcomed... I am a believer in the recovery model... so I am afraid if you cant see my point on that at least... then we will never agree... great exchanging views though!!

[firemonkey]

mld, on 21 October 2010 - 08:50 PM, said:

Firemonkey, I couldn't get your link to open, but if this is right I am doooomed! I get IB because of the contributions I have paid, and it took a lot of effort on my behalf to work for long enough, with voices shouting at me, to earn the right number of credits to get IB!

Still feeling miserable about all of this.

M.

Here is cut and paste of info in link(which opens ok for me)

Change to be introduced - 2012/13

Saving - £2bn per year by 2014/15

Access to what benefits you are able to claim is in some cases directly related to the payments you have made in National Insurance (NI) , meeting a set of criteria.

Where you have made sufficient NI payments you become entitled to "Contributory" benefits. Where you have made insufficient or no NI payments you become entitled to "Non-contributory" benefits.

The difference being that you are entitled to more if you have paid into the system through NI.

Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) is split into two groups. Following the "assessment phase" which includes the "Work Capability Assessment (WCA)" you are placed in either the Support Groups (which are exempt from these changes) which places no work requirements on you. Or you are placed in the Work Related Activity Group (WRAG) for which you have to find work.

From 2012/13 under current plans. If you are placed in the Contributory ESA WRAG group. You will receive this payment for only 1 year (time limited). Prior to the announcement yesterday. You would have continued to have been paid the Contributory ESA WRAG rate until you found employment. About 60% of people that typically fall into this category find work within a year. This change is expected to affect 1 million claimants.

After 1 year, where you are still looking for work. Your benefit entitlement will change to the typical "non-contributory ESA income-related" type payments, subject to meeting entitlement criteria at that time. They may have to claim other benefits or move off benefits. This will be a reduction in money paid in benefits. This type of payment, basic in nature, is often referred to as the "safety net".

The 1 year starts at the start of your ESA claim and includes the assessment phase.

For those that are awaiting migration from Incapacity Benefit (IB) to ESA. Where they are then placed in the ESA WRAG group. The 1 year will start following the reassessment phase. For those reassessed first this change will start in 2012/13.



Areas of Uncertainty (Spending Review 2010 policy costings)

* Some customers may be able to claim Contributory Jobseeker's Allowance if they are able to comply with the work search requirements. Numbers here are expected to be small and it is difficult to determine levels given the particular circumstances required to qualify.
* The change in policy is likely to see an increase in the number of appeals for those placed in the Work Related Activity Group (WRAG)
* An acknowledgement that claimants may reduce other income and/or capital so that they qualify for income-related ESA after the 1 year there Contributory ESA WRAG payments end.

[ghost]

Quote

Found this, might be of interest . Seems that one year cut off is for those receiving Contributory ESA not income based ESA.

Some clarification would be nice firemonkey, the BBC are saying one thing and different people other things. Yesterday it was announced that those found in the 'work support' group would recieve ESA for 1 year, then they default to JSA. Today the reports say that if household income comes to more than £90 after that one year of ESA, you lose that benefit. Reading that today as really put me on a low, i hope i misunderstood.

[firemonkey]

ghost, on 21 October 2010 - 09:08 PM, said:

Some clarification would be nice firemonkey, the BBC are saying one thing and different people other things. Yesterday it was announced that those found in the 'work support' group would recieve ESA for 1 year, then they default to JSA. Today the reports say that if household income comes to more than £90 after that one year of ESA, you lose that benefit. Reading that today as really put me on a low, i hope i misunderstood.

From government site(need to scroll down)

Page 1
Spending Review 2010
press notices
October 2010
Page 2
Welfare reform
The Spending Review today announces reforms which will tackle the fundamental drivers
of welfare dependency by delivering a simplified system in which work always pays.
In the June Budget the Government announced that it would save £11billion per annum
from welfare spending by 2014-15.
To put welfare on an affordable footing, the Spending Review announces further savings
of £7 billion, bringing total welfare savings to £18 billion per annum by 2014-15.
Over the next two Parliaments the current complex system of means-tested working-age
benefits and tax credits will gradually be replaced with the Universal Credit, an integrated
payment that will sharpen work incentives and reduce fraud and error.
£2 billion has been set aside in DWP’s DEL settlement over the next four years to fund the
implementation of the Universal Credit. Further details will be set out in DWP’s
forthcoming White Paper.
These reforms to the benefits system will be complemented by the new Work Programme,
which will provide personalised support for those with the greatest barriers to
employment. Private and third sector providers will be paid on the basis of the additional
benefit savings they secure, thereby incentivising higher performance levels and delivering
net savings for the taxpayer.
The Government will use some of the savings from withdrawing Child Benefit from
families with a higher rate taxpayer to fund significant above indexation increases to the
Child Tax Credit. This will ensure that the overall impact of the Spending Review will have
no measurable impact on child poverty in the next two years. The Government’s longer-
term strategy for tackling child poverty will be set out by the end of March 2011, and will
take into account the conclusions of the Frank Field review.
The table below sets out further details of the package of welfare reforms announced
today.
Measure
Detail
Savings
Time limiting
the
contributory
Employment
Support
Allowance
(ESA) to 1 year
for those in
Work Related
ESA is a benefit for those who are unable to work because
of a disability or health condition. An individual on ESA
can receive between £91 and £97 per week, depending on
the severity of their disability. ESA can be paid on a
contributory or an income-related basis, and there are
currently no limits on how long people can receive the
benefit.
This new proposal will time limit claims to contributory
ESA for those in the Work Related Activity Group (WRAG)

http://webcache.goog...df+From+2012/13

[alienpresence]

I think Rethink should show how these changes are going to effect people with mental health needs & their carers in various typical scenarios such as living with parents, on their own or has family units in private or social housing. It is going to cause ongoing anxiety unless simple explanations of losses and gains are visible and what things can be done to reduce losses. Such as compiling household outgoings and reducing/eliminating luxuries such as cable TV,mobile phones, holiday plans and internet connections.

[ghost]

Quote

Voluntary work, occupational therapy..etc..are all valid activities that can aid recovery and develop a sense of wellbeing... and I dont think this is one persons experience etc... it is pretty much accepted by everyone, most mental health charities, doctors, and a a huge number of users of such services....whether it be joining a scheme to learn skills, art therapy projects, garening projects..etc..etc... anyway you get my gist.

I do get your gist Dave but if you ask service users quite a few will also tell you they try the above activities and it ends up with them becoming unwell. Ive done college, volunteering and schemes and in truth i found it tiring, very hard and it caused me to become very unwell, its hell. What i was trying to say is that its ok for those that can achieve or take part, they should consider themselves fortunate. My only issue comes from the presumption that if it fits a few, it fits everyone, it doesn't. Quite often those that have had the capacity to benefit from such things presume that because they could do it, everyone can. In truth we are all different and have different experiences of mental health, had i been in your shoes i would probably see these things the same. Thats why i say these things are relative.

Quote

I dont chuck words in very often either..lol... I don't.. as it happens.. feel that severe mental illness is something that down to someones attitude..that is clearly rubbish..however... I do believe that overcoming stigma, challenging yourself, pro active recovery oriented actions can radically improve the outcome for everyone with even severe mental health problems... not a cure..maybe not even a massive reduction in symptoms...but certainly an improvement in wellbeing and fulfilment, a sense that the self has been regained once more..albeit whilst ackowledging ones disability. I have tried to express myself as clearly as I can here... you may disagree..but.. I cannot think any differently...I see plenty of evidence to suggest this is a valid belief..and..more importantly... it gives me, and a lot of other people, hope.

I don't disagree with that Dave but a person who can't walk, cant walk. My life story is one with a positive, unexpected outcome, i worked hard and pushed forward as far as i could and that has brought its rewards. Mine is a story of triumph over adversity, the problem though is i can just about cope with family life as it is, i have no friends or social life. The reason some people keep their lives extremely small is because if they try and push they end up in the darkest place for the longest time. Me personally, Ive reached my limits Dave, i just want and need to be left alone or i will go spiralling back down the ladder again. All this 'positive psychology' stuff is good for those who can do it, for the rest its just a reminder of how misunderstood they are.

Quote

What else am i saying..hmmmm again... working pro actively on a recovery, which I guess IS an attitude or belief as such, is also beneficial... surely the alternative is to give up and settle into victimhood

The symptoms of severe mental illness negate positive attitudes or the ability to function in some cases. I don't think someone suffering from hallucinations, voices, delusions, depression, paranoia and fear, overwhelmed by their disability is showing 'victimhood'.

I'm sorry if I'm coming across as a bit sharp Dave, i don't mean to, its a fault of mine I do have hope though, my hope is that people will be valued just because they are people and that those who can find peace and wellness do.

[ghost]

Quote

ESA is a benefit for those who are unable to work because
of a disability or health condition. An individual on ESA
can receive between £91 and £97 per week, depending on
the severity of their disability. ESA can be paid on a
contributory or an income-related basis, and there are
currently no limits on how long people can receive the
benefit.
This new proposal will time limit claims to contributory
ESA for those in the Work Related Activity Group (WRAG)

Thanks firemonkey, that explains it better, I wasn't asking you for clarification by the way, sorry if my post read like that

Quote

I think Rethink should show how these changes are going to effect people with mental health needs & their carers in various typical scenarios such as living with parents, on their own or has family units in private or social housing. It is going to cause ongoing anxiety unless simple explanations of losses and gains are visible and what things can be done to reduce losses.

That would be nice AP, something like that would help a great deal.

[ramboghettouk]

I at one point reached a stage were i felt i had recovered, but on attempting to work found that those around me considered me ill, that the meds made me sleep a lot, causing problems fitting work and the domestic labour of upkeep of a flat into waking hours

I don't know peoples diagnosis or the work they may be doing but with my schitzoprenia dianosis and workung 26hrs a week, well it didn't work out and for years afterwards i was persecuted by the then dhss for trying, services used recovery as an excuse to leave me as they do to this day

I don't beleive on an on drug recovery and am told with my ilness that i require meds, the press delights in storys of people with my diagnosis coming off meds

Heard the benefit minister say it's wrong that people on benefits can live in better areas than people in work, well i've lived in atrocious areas that have exacerbated my illness, as far as i'm concerned it's a breech of the disability discrimination act not to house me in a decent area, something the mental health charities aren't saying anything about

[raz]

Chris - Rethink, on 20 October 2010 - 10:19 AM, said:

BBC News: "Former Lib Dem leader Sir Menzies Campbell says it is not just a difficult day for his party but for everyone and that it would be unfair on future generations to delay severe cuts." (our emphasis)

Do you agree with this? What do you think is a fair way of dealing with the financial crisis?

you have got fell sorry for the people who voted for the liberal democrats. they will get all the blame for this if there is a loads of cuts.

[raz]

my money has been halfed.

[raz]

the govement are crafty. instead of take money off people with genuine illness. they should make people who have never worked and who have children every year so they dont have to work do some voluntary work.

[Gaz]

@raz: I'm intrigued what you mean by the government being crafty? I'm sure I'd probably agree but just wondered part of the spending review you were meaning?

Following on from ramboghettouk's comment above, I firmly believe that capping housing benefit by disregarding local housing costs is what you might call socially divisive, by which I mean it forces social integration backwards by creating ghettos of wealth and poverty - not what I would consider progressive at all...but, hey! we can warm our hearts in the knowledge that thousands of broad-minded Daily Mail readers will be able to feel their opinions have been vindicated. (sarcasm)

[alienpresence]

There's nothing wrong with less money within reason. I mean that's the end of the population boom of dust gatherers. The end of clutter. I mean no more snacks that have contributed to my overweight. A return to a simpler 'ascetic' lifestyle is no problem for me. I may take up my study of mathematics again as a hobby, since a good textbook can last many months and is relatively cheap. A lot of things get in the way of things when you've too much money. Studies have shown people are happier with money up to a point after which it makes no difference. I'm a miser at heart and although my wife is a bit of a wastrel she won't win many more battles on the wastage front methinks.