[Peer - Rethink]

Following on from the web chat back in February with Chris Grayling, I wanted to bring this topic up to date:

This morning Rethink's Jane Haris, head of communications and campaigns, gave evidence to the work and pensions committee and to express some of the concerns raised in this web chat along with the clear message that we should not be forcing people with mental health issues into the workplace.

A video of this meeting is available online via http://www.parliamen...http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=8300 (requires Silverlight plugin).

Thank you everyone who took part in this webchat and sent in their questions, I am going to leave this topic open for a few days so you can feedback your comments on the video.

[ramboself]

Theres a srory going round loonys here that some women who goes to the local day centre and was sectioned last year has been put on job seekers allowance, whether it's true that story is circulating

[Spartikus Rex]

ramboself, on 04 May 2011 - 06:18 PM, said:

Theres a srory going round loonys here that some women who goes to the local day centre and was sectioned last year has been put on job seekers allowance, whether it's true that story is circulating

They know there'll be non-compliance and service users living in desperation on the streets. Like I said in my previous incarnation this is all about creating social chaos amongst the lower echolons of society. This is to take the heat away from the filthy rich bankers and elitist politicans, it is nothing else.

[Bub]

There was an article called 'Morality and Welfare Reform' and I sent the link to my MP who is also a GP.

http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/14675

I have written to her many times about the injustice, what's going on with ATOS, the extremely low fraud rate of ESA and DLA, and also about David Cameron stirring up disability hatred when he was talking about drug addicts and alcoholics. This is her reply in relation just to the 'Morality and Welfare Reform' article.

"I have read the attached article with interest but I'm afraid I just do not agree with you on this issue. Of course there will be those who will find this stressful and I accept that many people feel very strongly that it is unfair but our previous system condemned too many people to a cycle of welfare dependency...I have seen the results of this for years in my surgeries with its resulting hopelessness and depression, also pretty stressful. I'm afraid there are a minority of people for whom a life on benefits has become an accepted norm even when they are capable of returning to work. It is neither affordable nationally nor in their own best interests. I don't agree with the argument that if it is difficult to find a job that is a reason to stay on ESA. Incidentally I regularly meet employers who tell me that they just cannot recruit staff in caring professions, local retailers even local agricultural employers."


She always says she 'does not agree' but doesn't give facts and figures. I despair. She's made up her mind. I also find it extremely arrogant that she knows what's best for ALL disabled people. Yes, SOME may have found it stressful and may have despaired, but she is not listening to me as an individual and others like me who are stressed and anxious about work. I have ergophobia. What would she say to that I wonder?

[Spartikus Rex]

What will she say when the first homeless paranoid schizophrenic goes berserk in some newspaper headline grabbing way, out of desperation and fear? and then the second? and third not long afterwards?

[I am an Aardvark]

Falling Down, on 04 May 2011 - 09:03 PM, said:

What will she say when the first homeless paranoid schizophrenic goes berserk in some newspaper headline grabbing way, out of desperation and fear? and then the second? and third not long afterwards?

I 'snapped' last night with shouting & a bat - No one got hurt; I just bark loud; & smash things up sometimes. If that had happened 10 years ago; then I expect that I'd be sitting on a locked ward today.

& this is because of stresses & pressures before 'they' have tried forcing me into work & stopping benefits. I really don't think 'they' want people like me running around mad - but we all have a breaking point.

[ebonycat]

Lotso, on 04 May 2011 - 10:35 PM, said:

I 'snapped' last night with shouting & a bat - No one got hurt; I just bark loud; & smash things up sometimes. If that had happened 10 years ago; then I expect that I'd be sitting on a locked ward today.

& this is because of stresses & pressures before 'they' have tried forcing me into work & stopping benefits. I really don't think 'they' want people like me running around mad - but we all have a breaking point.

Thats right Lotso acts of violence score points on the Atos testing

pretty soon All claimants with mental Health issues will be violent just to qualify for support.

Thats what happens when people confuse behaviour with Mental illness, bad behaviour just makes people look daft not ill, mental illness is more about symptoms

[I am an Aardvark]

ebonycat, on 04 May 2011 - 11:53 PM, said:

Thats right Lotso acts of violence score points on the Atos testing

Maybe that's the answer - to take a samurai sword to the interview?

[ebonycat]

Lotso, on 04 May 2011 - 11:00 PM, said:

Maybe that's the answer - to take a samurai sword to the interview?

Just shows how rediculous the test is and how little the Government knows about severe and enduring Mental illness.

[Spartikus Rex]

They'll only spend any more they save on weapons like cruise missiles for their next war so I've decided my exit will be as expensive for them as possible. They won't spend it on the deficit caused by their own incomeptance - that's just a phoney narrative they plucked out of their backsides. I don't wish anyone to be injured but I want it to cost them big time.

[I am an Aardvark]

Falling Down, on 05 May 2011 - 06:57 AM, said:

I don't wish anyone to be injured but I want it to cost them big time.

What do you have in mind?

The local electricity distribution nodes are easy to take out?

[Spartikus Rex]

Lotso, on 05 May 2011 - 08:40 AM, said:

What do you have in mind?

The local electricity distribution nodes are easy to take out?

There are a variety of scenarios. The larger the spectacle the more effort goes into planning and execution. I'd come up with something and I hope others in a similar situation do whatever it takes, maxed out, to draw attention to our plight?

[lost32]

I would place a bet that if they carry out these reforms as they are currently there will be quite a number of casualties that won't make the papers because they are not 'sexy enough' for the papers. Then they will find someone 'fit for work' where a 'decent person' someone with plenty of family ,perhaps a former soldier with PTSD or with no legs committs suicide due to the stress of being hounded by the job centre.You will seem a photo of his family especially if there is a cute little girl or boy,interview with his mourning wife. The labour supporting mirror and BBC and guardian will explode blaming the coalitions reforms despite the fact Labour started all this idiocy off. And even the Daily Mail and express will get in on the action but take a different tack blaming 'jobsworth civil servants' and 'foreign doctors with poor spoken english'.

Or they will find a seriously unwell person with a severe mental illness 'fit for work' who will go 'postal' perhaps in a jobcentre or at a workplacement and several people will be hurt.Maybe in the street outside one of these places You know 'decent taxpayers' will be hurt. People who can't be swept under the carpet or blame their illness ..Of course the media will cover this ,why? because they love a bit of blood especially if it comes at the hands of a 'psycho'.Kelvin Mackensie just loves it. Of course the Daily Mail in this case will blame the NHS and even the ill person, saying they were not properly supervised when it could well be the stress of the assessment process and being found fit for work caused that. But despite this there will be shocked faces amongst government ministers. Why? because they are young,stupid and live in their own little dream world or perhaps believe their own lies. The victims will be people they identify with ,that will also be why they are shocked.

I believe it would take one maybe a couple of situations like these and there will be mumourings amongst the general public,people who the tories want to vote for them ,who they care about.Well care about their votes anyway. Then you will find the BBC (taking orders from the government) doing a documentary on ATOS ,hidden cameras will be used,bit like that one on the NHS hosptials.

This will outrage the public more, and then Cameron and co will come riding in to save the day, There will be an internal investigation and all the blame will be laid at ATOS's door and some faceless and nameless DWP civil servant. The reforms will be halted pending further notice until after the next election. They will then be significantly watered down and Iian duncan smith will resign outraged that he has been made a fool of. As all his hard work to provide genuine welfare reform was just bastardised by George osbourne to save money and to be used by tory spin doctors as a rod to beat 'the scroungers'.

Labour won't be able to shout about the mistake and climbdown because these reforms are theirs, the tories just refined them and carried them out. So I doubt the tories will be damaged. Of course the poor nameless people who got caught up in this mess will but they won't matter because 'we are all in this together' and they had to 'share the pain'. Call me cynical.

[Bub]

Here is my response from JUDY.WARD1@DWP.GSI.GOV.UK after one of my posts was forwarded to Chris Grayling after his 'appearance' here. This response doesn't answer any of the comments I made or tells me anything new. I am not reassured by it.

"Thank you for your e-mail of 10 February sent to the Minister for Employment via the Rethink Campaigns Administrator regarding Employment and Support Allowance and the Work Capability Assessment. I am sorry that the Minister has not been able to reply personally, but I hope you will appreciate that he receives a great deal of correspondence on a variety of subjects. I have been asked to reply and I apologise for the delay in doing so.

There are currently 2.6 million people on incapacity benefits, some 7 per cent of the working-age population, at a cost to the taxpayer of around £13 billion a year. The Government knows that many of these people, with the right support, could and indeed do want to work but the current system does not give them that opportunity.

For someone on incapacity benefits it could be a considerable length of time before they have to speak to anyone at the Department of Work and Pensions about their condition or their work options. Everyone on Incapacity Benefit, Severe Disablement Allowance and Income Support paid because of an illness or disability will be reassessed to see if they are ready and capable of work. This reassessment will use the Work Capability Assessment and will focus on what an individual can do despite their health condition, rather than simply what they cannot do. It is based on the Government’s firm belief that for most people appropriate work is good for their health and well-being.

The Government is determined to ensure that the Work Capability Assessment accurately assesses the capability of people with mental health conditions. It believes that the principles of the Work Capability Assessment are right, but that the system inherited from the previous Labour Government contained some flaws that risked undermining its effectiveness. It has therefore moved swiftly to put those right. Since the election, a number of positive steps have been taken to improve its fairness.

The Welfare Reform Act 2007 requires an independent review of the Work Capability Assessment each year for the first five years of its operation, and Professor Malcolm Harrington, an Occupational Health expert and Professor Emeritus at the University of Birmingham, was appointed to lead the first in June 2010. That review, published on 23 November, found that the Work Capability Assessment is the right process, but made a substantial series of practical recommendations about how the process can be improved and set out a programme of work for the second review.

The Government fully accepted the recommendation that Atos Healthcare, which undertakes Work Capability Assessments for the Department, should provide mental health ‘champions’, healthcare professionals with enhanced skills, as a resource to support the assessment of individuals with mental health conditions. Ministers have agreed to introduce these, alongside Professor Harrington’s other proposals. Professor Harrington has also asked Mind, Mencap and the National Autistic Society to provide recommendations on refining the mental, intellectual and cognitive descriptors used in the Work Capability Assessment. They will report back to him shortly. The review and our response are available at: www.dwp.gov.uk/wca-review.

Professor Harrington has now been appointed to conduct a second independent review of the Work Capability Assessment, and he has been specifically asked to consider as part of the second review whether further improvements are needed. As part of this review, Professor Harrington is expected to launch a call for evidence this summer. If you would like to contribute, further information will be on the Department’s website at: www.dwp.gov.uk/wca-review or you can e-mail: wca.evidence@dwp.gsi.gov.uk and ask to be notified when it is published.

The Government believes that the current system is in need of radical reform and that it is wrong to write off the millions of people currently receiving old-style incapacity benefits. However, it is recognised that disabled people or people with a health condition – even if assessed as capable of work - may need support to move into or towards work. This Department aims to have the new Work Programme in place nationally by the summer of 2011. The Work Programme will be an integrated package of support providing personalised help for people who find themselves out of work.

In order to ensure that as many people benefit from the Work Programme as quickly as possible, many of the existing programmes will be phased out and will be folded into the Work Programme. The Work Programme will support a wide range of customers – from Jobseeker’s Allowance recipients who have been out of work for some time, to customers who may previously have been receiving incapacity benefits for many years. In addition, Work Choice is designed to ensure that disabled people with more complex support needs, that could not be met through other employment support, have access to the right support to help them prepare for, enter and retain employment (including self-employment). Until the Work Programme is implemented, the Government will ensure support is in place.

The Department recognises that people with severe impairments or health conditions may not be able to engage in work-related activity. These customers will be placed in the Support Group and will not be expected to engage in work-related activity, although they can do so if they wish. However, there is evidence showing that work and work-related activity is good for disabled people and people with health conditions.

As you have mentioned, tax credits are currently available to working people on a low income. Similarly, Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit are also available to people who work. However, Universal Credit is a fundamental reform of the benefits system. It will replace Working Tax Credit, Child Tax Credit, Housing Benefit, Income Support, income-based Jobseeker’s Allowance and income-related Employment and Support Allowance with a single welfare payment that rewards people for moving into work. There will be a new single taper of around 65 per cent; this is the rate at which benefit will be reduced to take account of net earnings. In addition different amounts of benefit will be disregarded before the taper applies to reflect the needs of different households. By allowing people to keep more of their benefit when they first go back to work, Universal Credit will ensure that getting a job is always worth it.

Universal Credit will restore fairness and simplicity to an overly complex, outdated and expensive benefits system that often acts as a barrier in getting back to work. The clear financial incentive provided by Universal Credit will be backed up by a strong system of conditionality: unemployed people who can work will be required to take all reasonable steps to find and move into employment. It will find the right balance between the welfare state as a safety net and a benefits system that sends out a clear message: if you can work, you should work.

The Government introduced a Welfare Reform Bill on 16 February 2011 in order to give effect to these changes. Detailed implementation plans are being developed and the first new claims to Universal Credit are expected to begin from 2013. It will then take around five years to complete the transition to the new system.

I hope that this helps to explain the position

Yours sincerely

Business Delivery Team"

[firemonkey]

Basically the response was a load of crap.

[Spartikus Rex]

firemonkey, on 13 May 2011 - 10:45 PM, said:

Basically the response was a load of crap.

Guy Fawkes was right and I hope they prove it someday.

[fearfulofthefuture]

Bub, on 13 May 2011 - 09:32 PM, said:

Here is my response from JUDY.WARD1@DWP.GSI.GOV.UK after one of my posts was forwarded to Chris Grayling after his 'appearance' here. This response doesn't answer any of the comments I made or tells me anything new. I am not reassured by it.

"Thank you for your e-mail of 10 February sent to the Minister for Employment via the Rethink Campaigns Administrator regarding Employment and Support Allowance and the Work Capability Assessment. I am sorry that the Minister has not been able to reply personally, but I hope you will appreciate that he receives a great deal of correspondence on a variety of subjects. I have been asked to reply and I apologise for the delay in doing so.

There are currently 2.6 million people on incapacity benefits, some 7 per cent of the working-age population, at a cost to the taxpayer of around £13 billion a year. The Government knows that many of these people, with the right support, could and indeed do want to work but the current system does not give them that opportunity.

For someone on incapacity benefits it could be a considerable length of time before they have to speak to anyone at the Department of Work and Pensions about their condition or their work options. Everyone on Incapacity Benefit, Severe Disablement Allowance and Income Support paid because of an illness or disability will be reassessed to see if they are ready and capable of work. This reassessment will use the Work Capability Assessment and will focus on what an individual can do despite their health condition, rather than simply what they cannot do. It is based on the Government’s firm belief that for most people appropriate work is good for their health and well-being.

The Government is determined to ensure that the Work Capability Assessment accurately assesses the capability of people with mental health conditions. It believes that the principles of the Work Capability Assessment are right, but that the system inherited from the previous Labour Government contained some flaws that risked undermining its effectiveness. It has therefore moved swiftly to put those right. Since the election, a number of positive steps have been taken to improve its fairness.

The Welfare Reform Act 2007 requires an independent review of the Work Capability Assessment each year for the first five years of its operation, and Professor Malcolm Harrington, an Occupational Health expert and Professor Emeritus at the University of Birmingham, was appointed to lead the first in June 2010. That review, published on 23 November, found that the Work Capability Assessment is the right process, but made a substantial series of practical recommendations about how the process can be improved and set out a programme of work for the second review.

The Government fully accepted the recommendation that Atos Healthcare, which undertakes Work Capability Assessments for the Department, should provide mental health ‘champions’, healthcare professionals with enhanced skills, as a resource to support the assessment of individuals with mental health conditions. Ministers have agreed to introduce these, alongside Professor Harrington’s other proposals. Professor Harrington has also asked Mind, Mencap and the National Autistic Society to provide recommendations on refining the mental, intellectual and cognitive descriptors used in the Work Capability Assessment. They will report back to him shortly. The review and our response are available at: www.dwp.gov.uk/wca-review.

Professor Harrington has now been appointed to conduct a second independent review of the Work Capability Assessment, and he has been specifically asked to consider as part of the second review whether further improvements are needed. As part of this review, Professor Harrington is expected to launch a call for evidence this summer. If you would like to contribute, further information will be on the Department’s website at: www.dwp.gov.uk/wca-review or you can e-mail: wca.evidence@dwp.gsi.gov.uk and ask to be notified when it is published.

The Government believes that the current system is in need of radical reform and that it is wrong to write off the millions of people currently receiving old-style incapacity benefits. However, it is recognised that disabled people or people with a health condition – even if assessed as capable of work - may need support to move into or towards work. This Department aims to have the new Work Programme in place nationally by the summer of 2011. The Work Programme will be an integrated package of support providing personalised help for people who find themselves out of work.

In order to ensure that as many people benefit from the Work Programme as quickly as possible, many of the existing programmes will be phased out and will be folded into the Work Programme. The Work Programme will support a wide range of customers – from Jobseeker’s Allowance recipients who have been out of work for some time, to customers who may previously have been receiving incapacity benefits for many years. In addition, Work Choice is designed to ensure that disabled people with more complex support needs, that could not be met through other employment support, have access to the right support to help them prepare for, enter and retain employment (including self-employment). Until the Work Programme is implemented, the Government will ensure support is in place.

The Department recognises that people with severe impairments or health conditions may not be able to engage in work-related activity. These customers will be placed in the Support Group and will not be expected to engage in work-related activity, although they can do so if they wish. However, there is evidence showing that work and work-related activity is good for disabled people and people with health conditions.

As you have mentioned, tax credits are currently available to working people on a low income. Similarly, Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit are also available to people who work. However, Universal Credit is a fundamental reform of the benefits system. It will replace Working Tax Credit, Child Tax Credit, Housing Benefit, Income Support, income-based Jobseeker’s Allowance and income-related Employment and Support Allowance with a single welfare payment that rewards people for moving into work. There will be a new single taper of around 65 per cent; this is the rate at which benefit will be reduced to take account of net earnings. In addition different amounts of benefit will be disregarded before the taper applies to reflect the needs of different households. By allowing people to keep more of their benefit when they first go back to work, Universal Credit will ensure that getting a job is always worth it.

Universal Credit will restore fairness and simplicity to an overly complex, outdated and expensive benefits system that often acts as a barrier in getting back to work. The clear financial incentive provided by Universal Credit will be backed up by a strong system of conditionality: unemployed people who can work will be required to take all reasonable steps to find and move into employment. It will find the right balance between the welfare state as a safety net and a benefits system that sends out a clear message: if you can work, you should work.

The Government introduced a Welfare Reform Bill on 16 February 2011 in order to give effect to these changes. Detailed implementation plans are being developed and the first new claims to Universal Credit are expected to begin from 2013. It will then take around five years to complete the transition to the new system.

I hope that this helps to explain the position

Yours sincerely

Business Delivery Team"

Dear Business Delivery Team

I do not accept that the Minister for Employment is too busy to respond to the concerns of people that he is driving to suicide by the Government’s lack of empathy and understanding. Yes, there are some people who wish to work and could do so with the right support, but there are many who don’t feel able to and who are not being placed in the Support Group.

Do not blame the Labour Government for all the failings of the WCA. The Coalition Government has made the WCA more severe and has elected to introduce a one year time limit to contributory ESA. Furthermore, though the Government has agreed to accept the recommendations from the Harrington Review, the fact remains that people have already been assessed and continue to be assessed before the recommendations have been put into place.

My understanding is that the only people who can be “mental health champions” are the people with the mental health problems themselves - they are the experts on their illness. Do not patronise us by trying to justify your argument, telling us that there is evidence that work and work-related activity is good for disabled people. It certainly isn’t good to feel that you are going to be forced to work when you know that you cannot.

You may be succeeding in conning the non-disabled general public but you are not fooling us. We may be ill but we are not stupid.

I hope that this helps to explain the position.

Yours sincerely

nomorefaith

fearfulofthefuture, on 14 May 2011 - 11:17 PM, said:

Dear Business Delivery Team

I do not accept that the Minister for Employment is too busy to respond to the concerns of people that he is driving to suicide by the Government’s lack of empathy and understanding. Yes, there are some people who wish to work and could do so with the right support, but there are many who don’t feel able to and who are not being placed in the Support Group.

Do not blame the Labour Government for all the failings of the WCA. The Coalition Government has made the WCA more severe and has elected to introduce a one year time limit to contributory ESA. Furthermore, though the Government has agreed to accept the recommendations from the Harrington Review, the fact remains that people have already been assessed and continue to be assessed before the recommendations have been put into place.

My understanding is that the only people who can be “mental health champions” are the people with the mental health problems themselves - they are the experts on their illness. Do not patronise us by trying to justify your argument, telling us that there is evidence that work and work-related activity is good for disabled people. It certainly isn’t good to feel that you are going to be forced to work when you know that you cannot.

You may be succeeding in conning the non-disabled general public but you are not fooling us. We may be ill but we are not stupid.

I hope that this helps to explain the position.

Yours sincerely

nomorefaith

[fearfulofthefuture]

Bub, on 10 February 2011 - 12:38 PM, said:

He was better than Maria Miller yesterday, though that's not saying much, but he did give us the whole hour which is more than she did

You mean the Maria Miller that couldn't be bothered to attend the Hardest Hit march?!

[Bub]

Great letter, Fearful! I've already drafted a reply, I realized I couldn't write back to the woman who replied as she won't respond so it's back to writing to ministers@dwp.gsi.gov.uk. I will include yours too if you don't mind as someone who 'attended' the Chris Grayling Rethink Webchat.
Bub

fearfulofthefuture, on 14 May 2011 - 11:19 PM, said:

Dear Business Delivery Team

I do not accept that the Minister for Employment is too busy to respond to the concerns of people that he is driving to suicide by the Government’s lack of empathy and understanding. Yes, there are some people who wish to work and could do so with the right support, but there are many who don’t feel able to and who are not being placed in the Support Group.

Do not blame the Labour Government for all the failings of the WCA. The Coalition Government has made the WCA more severe and has elected to introduce a one year time limit to contributory ESA. Furthermore, though the Government has agreed to accept the recommendations from the Harrington Review, the fact remains that people have already been assessed and continue to be assessed before the recommendations have been put into place.

My understanding is that the only people who can be “mental health champions” are the people with the mental health problems themselves - they are the experts on their illness. Do not patronise us by trying to justify your argument, telling us that there is evidence that work and work-related activity is good for disabled people. It certainly isn’t good to feel that you are going to be forced to work when you know that you cannot.

You may be succeeding in conning the non-disabled general public but you are not fooling us. We may be ill but we are not stupid.

I hope that this helps to explain the position.

Yours sincerely

nomorefaith

[fearfulofthefuture]

Bub, on 15 May 2011 - 04:34 PM, said:

Great letter, Fearful! I've already drafted a reply, I realized I couldn't write back to the woman who replied as she won't respond so it's back to writing to ministers@dwp.gsi.gov.uk. I will include yours too if you don't mind as someone who 'attended' the Chris Grayling Rethink Webchat.
Bub

Thank you, Bub! Somehow I don't think the "Business Delivery Team" will appreciate it as much. Of course, you may include my letter too. Could you also please remind them that I STILL haven't received a reply from Chris Grayling with regard to the ESA time limit? The "woman" who replied probably doesn't exist anyway. Good luck - you will need it!